Ιntroduction to Odd time signatures

[vagelism]

Ψαχνοντας λιγο περισσοτερο μηπως εγραψα ανακριβεια σχετικα με τον τροπο που η Δυτικη μουσικη αντιλαμβανεται τα odd time κομματια...{σε σχεση με τις Βαλκανικες χωρες αλλα και την Ασια} αρχισα να το ψαχνω περισσοτερο.

{Βασικα φοβηθηκα μηπως αναπαρηγαγα την θεωρια που ειχα μάθει απο την δασκαλα μου στο ωδειο και σας λεω και εσας αρλουμπες.}

 

Η αληθεια ειναι οτι επεσα πολυ συχνα πανω στις λεξεις Western theory of music οποτε  τελικα δεν θεωρω οτι μου ελεγε μπουρδες...και γενικα δεν εχω ακουσει πολλα δυτικοτροπα κομματια που πατανε σε groopings..

Μετα σκεφτηκα οτι η μουσικη ειναι απλα μουσικη...λαθος δεν υπαρχει - και οι 2 τροποι σωστοι ειναι {το ακουσμα αλλάζει} αρα ενα ανοιχτο μυαλο / συνθετης θα τους ειχε και τους 2 στην παλεττα του.

Ξερω οτι ο Ζαππα πχ γουσταρε τραγουδια απο Βουλγαρια οποτε δεν θα μου κανει εντυπωση αν ακουσω κανα grooping στις συνθεσεις του.

Ο Vai επισης σαν ψυχοπαιδι του, στο anwers του Passion and warfare κανει ενα 7/8 grooping πανω στα 4 που ακουγεται πολυ Βουλγαρικο...

 

Ενδιαφερον βρηκα σε αυτες τις αναλυσεις. η μια απο ενα Τουρκο .

I read comments in here talking about 5/8 7/8 and 9/8 (with 9, I mean 4+5 and not 3+3+3) as metric structures "developed" and used by some progressive musicians. For somebody trained as a classical Western musician, it may seem so; but actually here in Turkey and throughout the whole Balkan area, including Asia minor (Turkey, Bulgaria, Greece, Albania, Macedonia; Kosova, etc.) we have all of these meters as part of our traditional folk musics and ordinary people dance to these meters in weddings! These meters are termed as "aksak" meters (means "irregular" in Turkish) and they are easy to internalise if you perceive them as combinations of 2/8 and 3/8. The music also reinforces this grouping idea with accentuation. Then you have all these different combinations: (all of them exist whereas the most frequently used are the ones where 3 is at the end): 5/8 (2+3 or 3+2); 7/8 (2+2+3 or 2+3+2 or 3+2+2) and 9/8 (2+2+2+3 or 2+2+3+2 or 2+3+2+2 or 3+2+2+2).

 

Και αυτή απο εναν Αμερικάνο.

Music can be expressed anyway you like. Written notation and music theory are convention and language that attempt to represent the music.

 

That being said I will attempt to address your question, based on Western music notation and terminology.

 

The confusion and variety of answers to your question, "What is the 'theory' behind 'odd time signatures'?", seems to stem from various interpretations of the term "odd".

 

Some of the answers are interpreting the word "odd" to mean unfamiliar or simply different than mainstream 4/4. Other answers being offered are focusing on the number of beats in the time signature and are using the word "odd" to describe what could also be termed as "irregular", which may be less ambiguous.

 

First let's look at the denotative meaning of "odd" as it pertains to music theory and time signatures.

 

By definition (music theory definition in terms of Western music notation) there are a finite number of ways (or combinations) to count the number of beats and to subdivide those beats.

 

If you are using the term "odd" as the opposite of "even" (and not odd as in strange or unfamiliar, or odd as in irregular), then this applies to the subdivisions of a single beat, or the pulse grouping.

 

In subdividing a beat into pulses there is only odd or even. Even means dividing the beat into two equal parts (or groupings of two) and the term for this is called "simple". Odd means dividing the beat into three equal parts (or groupings of three) and the term for this is "compound".

 

The terms for the number of beats (which is denoted by the denominator in a time signature) are: duple = two beats triple = three beats quadruple = four beats

 

Taking all combinations of {simple, compound} with {duple, triple, quadruple} yields all the "regular" time signatures:

 

simple duple

simple triple

simple quadruple

compound duple

compound triple

compound quadruple

Examples time signatures (all of these are "regular"):

 

simple duple = 2/2 (cut time), 2/4, 2/8

simple triple = 3/2, 3/4, 3/8

simple quadruple = 4/2, 4/4, 4/8

compound duple = 6/8

compound triple = 9/8

compound quadruple = 12/8

Anything else that does not fit into the above categories has many names such as

 

complex, asymmetric, irregular, unusual, and yes "odd".

Examples of irregular:

 

5/8, 7/4, 7/8, etc...

 

For these types, all of these meters must at some point be broken down. A decision must be made as to how they should be counted and grouped, which determines what beats are stressed or accented.

 

Proof of this is the varying opinions on how to count Pink Floyd Money. Some say, it is 3/4 + 4/4. Others say it is 4/4 + 3/4. Another seems to say it is a crippled 8/4. That is, the last beat is the next down beat... it just keeps losing one beat each measure. They are all valid perceptions. But if you want to be 100% sure, go ask Roger Waters.

 

If a composer is concerned and particular about how their irregular time signature is counted and stressed they can use an "additive" notation, which is yet another term to add to the list of terms for irregular. For example, they will literally write 4/4 + 3/4 on the staff instead of writing 7/4. The composer can also ensure a complex time signature is counted they way they intend by grouping the note heads.

 

And since we are talking terminology, there is also "irrational" time signatures such as 3/10 or 5/24. But I do not want to go there.

 

As for Rush, I agree with someone's statement that Rush does not say "let's make a complex time piece of music to really stimulate theorists." I think Getty and Neil look at their poetry (lyrics), the rhythm and metrics of the words, and put it to music. And they have natural feel and economy of meter. If their poetry only needs 7 beats in one stanza, but then needs 4 or 8 beats in the refrain, then so be it... they write it that way, instead of filling out the musical measure with extra notes. Of course their drummer has a clear command of meter and rhythm. They all do, they think that way, it is natural and not forced. Although I also think they are very "white", and for them maybe it is a way of being "funky". (Please do not take that as being racial. It is just a way of describing feeling in music. The Bee Gees are funky too, but that is some British, white, funk. I am merely suggesting that Rush's use of meter may be in their mind funky, but it is some white Canadian funk.) But I digress.

 

As I said, my reply to your question is coming from Western music notation.

 

Other countries and cultures are not quite as "brain washed" as we are in the U.S.

 

In the U.S. since the age of recording, record producers, radio stations, and the music industry have influence the listener as to what is considered "good music". This industry only exposes the public to a very narrow spectrum of music in order to monetize and make profit. The average American listener cannot hear beyond an 8 beat pattern and if it is not symmetrical we consider it "off beat". That is not necessarily the listener's fault, but is a result of the brain washing.

 

Other cultures do naturally think in patterns that are much longer and have complex syncopation, all which Western music would classify as irregular.

 

Indian Jhaptal 10-beat pattern, counted 2-3-2-3.

 

African rhythms built on 25-beat patterns.

 

For the under exposed, unaccustomed listener it is hard for our brains to allow for this. We are always trying to find a cyclic half point in the phrase that is not there.

[vagelism]

Μερικά κομματια για οποιον θελει να εξασκησει λιγο το αυτί του σε odd time καταστασεις

Ενας παραδοσιακος Αγριλαμας {Αναποδος Καρσιλαμας 3-2-2-2}

 

Eνα 7αρι απο τον  Sting.

 

Eνα ωραιο 5αρι απο τον Ibrahim που γυρναει σε 4αρι στο Β

 

To Winter sun απο τους δικους μας SINGULARITY.  TO A εγω το βγαζω 6 5 5 9 5 { 222 , 23,23,2223,23}

 

Μια περιεργη φορμα απο την  Tori που τα πειραζει πολυ.

[Haris]

η μουσικη ειναι απλα μουσικη...λαθος δεν υπαρχει - και οι 2 τροποι σωστοι ειναι {το ακουσμα αλλάζει} αρα ενα ανοιχτο μυαλο / συνθετης θα τους ειχε και τους 2 στην παλεττα του.

Ακριβώς αυτό. Η ομαδοποίηση είναι ένας τρόπος για να αντιληφθούμε καλύτερα τον παλμό (τα ισχυρά μέρη ή, γιατί όχι, το "clave") ενός ρυθμού που δεν μας μας είναι οικείος. Στην Ελλάδα έχουμε πολλούς τέτοιους ρυθμούς και έχουμε συνηθίσει π.χ. τον παλμό του καλαματιανού, του καρσιλαμά κ.λπ. Δεν σημαίνει ότι δεν ομαδοποιούμε. Οι αυτοδίδακτοι παραδοσιακοί μουσικοί το κάνουν ασυναίσθητα χωρίς κανένα θεωρητικό υπόβαθρο, απλά επειδή μεγάλωσαν μέσα σ' αυτό.

 

Για τους δυτικούς τώρα, αυτά τα δύο βίντεο δείχνουν αυτό που έγραψα και πριν, ότι δηλαδή ομαδοποιούν και αυτοί - ή τέλος πάντων αρκετοί από αυτούς- ακριβώς γιατί ο τρόπος αυτός τους διευκολύνει.

 

Εδώ ο Minneman γκρουπάρει σε 2-3 τα πέντε τελευταία 16α ενός ρυθμού 13/16:

 

Και εδώ ο τύπος εξηγεί τη χρησιμότητα του grouping: